91 thoughts on “Il Capo”

1. @Graham
   I am not one to believe that everything was perfect in traditional societies. For example, in Persia, the religion was an aristocratic religion, and many of the peasantry disliked the priests and thought them corrupt. But that does not mean that they could not sort out their affairs and needed to get all converted by the the sword to an alien faith. It goes without saying that Persia makes Islam palatable through Sufism as it could not get out of it, changing its nature, Persianizing it; the real Isalm can be found in Saudi and Pakistan, not the Persianized Islam…
   In India, unlike Persia, movements like Buddhism lead to spreading of literacy. Buddhism is an internal pehenomenon and sought to make tradition stronger by seeking to strengthen those aspects which were getting corrupted. You also have religions like Jainism in which the mercantile classes who perhaps felt were left out could express spirituality in a way proper to their culture, and so on. But none of these religons destroy the essetial Indic unity of culture, which is why all these religions exist pretty much harmoniously. A culture can self-correct if it is left to itself, but when damage is done by external forces to an extent that an entirely way of life is lost, then it is exceedingly difficult to recapture that which is lost.
   In India, the destruction was so great after the invasions that people’s lives were destroyed and they would just wander about aimlesslessly after the devastations as they have no clue as to how to react as something they cannot understand has been imposed, this incidentally is where thugs come from, from people wandering about aimlessly after the invasions who have been rendered destitute who trun into thugs…
   A proper undestanding of Indic religions requires study at a deep level as there are many layers and nuances. My take on it is that if anything good survives there, it is nothing short of miraculous, as other societies never recovered from such devastations…
   So the process of healing is likely to be a gradual one if it does not get subverted by forces that prevent healing of a culture, most of which today is home grown so Indians of course are fully responsible. I am just saying there is a larger backdrop to the state of affairs there, the history of the region is a complex one…

   Loading...

2. “are” to be understood above and so in for all case typos…

   Loading...

3. @Graham
   Yes of course. If there was ever a God intoxicated land historically it was India…I believe ultimately in human dignity.
   I apologize if I came across as rude in any way. You see, superficial understanding of the kind Ted displays brings that out. Now it is fine to focus on genetics, but that is only a part of a larger civilizational context. I find his obsession with Buddha being blue eyed or whatever amusing, and his mention of studies of Kshatriyas having these genes and that genes amusing. The Kshatriyas are a heterogenous group. I wonder why an entire nation of blue eyed blondes such as Scandinavia did not produce a Buddha? Perhaps something Ted might like to think about. It is not as simple as people like Ted think and I detest reductionisms and simplifications of matters which cannot be explained away by reductionism but must be viewed in a civilizational context.
   As for man’s common end being God that is what the Indic religions have taught, far before any other religion taught it. The interest for me is those qualities which make tradition eternal, and it is those aspects of Indic civilization that interests me, because the ideals and teaching when properly understood are eternal, whatever might be happening there today…
   As for India being a Hindu nation, I doubt that is the case, they are certainly in the majority but they are not in political control, and the ideals by which it is run today are not the ideals of our civilization. One can even say the natural state of India when left to itself was prosperity, it is prosperous and a thinking culture until the arrival of Islam middle ages, then it transitions to being poor from being the most prosperous and produces no culture and stagnates, then you have colonialism which takes advantage of this wretched state and then the modern state which in its essence is against the traditional culture. But in parts which are Hindu run, things are transparent and quite prosperous, as the economist had to admit in states like Gujrat. But propserity alone is meaningless…
   In essence India without its traditional civilization is a lost country, I am not sure where it is headed but it is certainly moving somewhere. As for a spiritual revival, I see that happening when it is able to provide for basic needs of the people. One must not forget that the spirituality of India was a result of its properity and that an ability to see beyond materialism arises when people are in plenty not scarcity as was the case in classical India…In short, a proper understanding of a nation’s history is to be understood if its civilizationa and culture and religion is to be understood…

   Loading...

4. kadambari,

   What would a traditional Hindu make of the following sentence?

   “Because man’s common end is God, men have a common dignity.”

   Loading...

5. @TED
   Will Durant is merely pointing out that distinctions such as superior and inferior do not do justice to caste, thats all. The Kshatriya has his function and the Brahmin had his function. Where is the superior and inferior? The Brahmin would respect the Kshatriya as King and the Kshatriya would respect the Brahman’s knowledge and way of life. The Brahmin could have contempt for the King as sage, and the King could have contempt for the sage as a man of power. In earlier times, the distinction may have been even more fluid, with Brahmin Kings fulfilling a dual role. But do we care? We care about when India had a golden age when it produced thought, culture and thinking, and influenced civilization as far as Malaysia and Indo-China. Just as Greeks civilization influenced the West, Indian civilization went Westwards as the semitic faiths in the Middle East did not enable it to interact with the West properly. When it did, the interaction was harmonious as is evident from the Hellenic Buddhist civilization in Bactria which was later destroyed by the barbaric Huns. Of course there was much interaction between the East and West before the rise of the semitic religions in the Middle East. Greek women used to guard the gates of Kings which I find odd, they must have been some kind of amazonian sturdy types. Manuscripts in Kashmir are full of interactions with Yavanas (Greeks) who travelled everywhere in those times. The interaction ends with the rise of Semitic faiths in between, thereafter the West knows of India through Arabs who take credit for Indian inventions and there is no contact especially after Islamic invasions; Columbus has to sail the world to find India to make money when the Greeks were frequent visitors to India. The Muslims who seal India off from intellectual interaction and any kind of higher culture after they overrun the North and it remains in the dark ages until the British come as humble traders first(only rif raffs went to India back then, the educated, aristocratic classes stayed at home, same with the Portugese most of those who came there were thugs and behaved like thugs), and then gradually take over. Its not too hard to take over peoples who have degenerated under Islam and whose cultural growth and intellectual development has withered due to the destruction of of their culture by that religion. The British later get very arrogant forgetting their humble origins and develop a sense of superiority.
   As for genetic characteristics there are blue eyes, green eyes in our family as well. My own mother, one of the most beautiful women I have seen (proper ladies no not play in the cheap movie industry or advertise their looks as is fashionable here and even in our parts today), looks very much Western in her features. But do we care? Western Anglo-Saxon mercantile culture really is alien to us even though now people adopt that culture to survive in the modern world. Does having certain looks make people the same as Europeans? No because culturally can be different. Similarly, those who had caste would consider those outside caste as mchleccha– outsider–this was the way they referred to any outsiders, does not matter if they were dark or fair or blue eyed or whatever, if you were had no caste and were not initiated into the religion you were mchleccha.
   So I fail to really understand your point about Kshatriyas having more of these genes here or Brahmins having more genes there. Who cares? There are still quite a few blondes amongst Kashmiris, my own great father in law was a tall blue eyed man, extremely fair. Do they think they are the same as Westerners? No. They would want the family to marry as always within their own traditions if possible. So there is much more here at play than just looks which is an extremely narrow way of looking at cultures and peoples.
   My Persian friends tell me the same things. Sure Persians called themselves Aryans like the old Indians. Do they think themselves the same as Europeans? No. They have a distinct culture. So all this about people having this gene and that gene I find quite a futile exercise. There is something that has been preserved in India despite everything, and that something needs revival in my opinion, and I think this is the important thing. As for blondes, they seem to have been quite a few even in Afghanistan until a hundred years ago with their non-Vedic pagan religions, and they got converted to Islam quite recently. They seem quite backward to me from the people who had high civilization and culture in our regions. So these things I think are to be taken in perspective.
   But you are free to build your fantasies. I believe you also depict Christ, most likely a Jewish man with curly black hair as blond and blue eyed as well don’t you? I guess people have to fall back on skin color when they do not have a long, unbroken tradition to fall back to in the past?

   Westerners describe Kashmiris as the purest of Aryans such as Witney who wrote the Sankrit dictionary. We get a laugh at it all. What do you think Germans and Swedes were doing when people were producing philosophy in Greece and India? People are culturally different in different periods of history, and all nations do not undergo the same development at the same time, some produce primitive thinking when other are producing culture. So genetics is part of the story. Naturally there would be many fair people in old India the borders of which went up to Afghanistan. Those people at least in Afghanistan no longer exist as they have been wiped out as a race and replaced by a mixture of semitic races and Turko-Monglos. In places like Pakistan they also do not exist and the old inhabitants have been converted, and as Muslims are in amnesia of their old culture, this is what “conversion” does to folks.
   However, the values that Indic civilization produced is quite strong amongst some peoples, many darkest Indians are quite superior in terms of capability, so race for us is quite different from race for Europeans. As I said, we are Brahmins and have been for 3000 years, a continuous culture than anything out there, if you have a friend who has had a continuous culture and heritage for that long and still bears the same religion of his forefathers, we might have something in common. Zoroastrians in this sense have a great deal in common with us, as also having this kind of heritage, although they lost a lot when they had to exist as merchants in India and became mercantile peoples, losing their original Aryan qualities (Aryan in our sense that our ancestors used). But they have been wiped out from their country which now has a semitic religion, which was not the religion of the Persian peoples initially. I feel sad for them because they are still intelligent peoples and show their intelligence even under a different religion.

   The decline of India has to do with the Islamic invasions, the converting and killing most of the aristocracy and the denuding of higher types in the North. No culture in the East survived Islam with the exception of India. The semitization of the culture is still going on with missionaires fast at work converting poor people for the glory of the Church. The Dravidian south which Hoo speaks disparagingly of preserved a great deal of the culture when it got destryed in the North. Today people in the South can still be impressive and gentle people. Then there was colonialism. Yet something is there which has not been destroyed and can be revived under the right conditions…
   You see, the darkest Indian can often have superior qualities, this is something those with blond hair and blue eye worship might not understand or find difficult to comprehend as to how it can be possible, but is a result of civilization which has not been completely destroyed, if destroyed to a great extent….

   Loading...

6. No one has yet provided quote where Evola claimed (1) kshatriya is superior to brahman or (2) soul is superior to spirit. To confuse soul and spirit is to destroy the entire foundation of both Guenon, Evola, Hermetism, and every other esoteric tradition. Ted please exile yourself from this discussion.

   Do not rely on “Gregor” for an objective account of Evola.
   English text p 59: “forms more or less connected to the substratum of pre-Aryan races”
   Italian text p 80: “forme piu o meno legate al substrato delle razze pre-arie”

   English p 195: “the races of the second cycle:
   Italian p 237: “le razze del secondo ciclo”

   Now, Revolt went through 3 editions where Evola made modifications to the text. Now if Gregor was relying on an early edition, it was nevertheless Evola himself who made those changes … not the English translator.

   As for the text from Sintesi, what Gregor wrote is entirely misleading … I’ll translate the paragraph soon, if only to end this nonsense (and someone volunteers to transcribe it).
   First of all, in that passage he was describing the Nordic races, not the Hyperboreans, since we lack any fossil evidence as Evola points out. BTW, in that section Evola describes the Hyperboreans as the “race of the spirit”, not the “race of the soul”.

   Loading...

7. Interesting Ted. Although that article doesn’t cite where Evola said this of Ikshvaku, I located it:
   ´In any case, it is a fact that in many texts we see a king or a ksatriya (a member of the warrior nobility) vying in knowledge with and sometimes even instructing members of the Brahman caste; and that, according to tradition, primordial knowledge was handed down. starting from iksv?ku, in regal succession; the same “solar dynasty” (surya-varmsa) that we mentioned in connection with the Buddha’s family, also figures here, We should have the following picture; in the Indo-Aryan post-Vedic world, while the warrior caste held a more realistic and virile view and put emphasis on the doctrine of the atma as the unchangeable and immortal principle of human personality, the Brahman caste was becoming, little by Little, “sacerdotal” and, instead of facing the reality, was moving among ritual and stereotyped exegeses and speculations. Simultaneously, in another way, the character of the first Vedic period was becoming overgrown with a tropical and chaotic vegetation of myths and popular religious images, even of semidevotional practices seeking the attainment of this, that, or the other divine “rebirth” on the basis of views on reincarnation and transmigration that, as we have said, had already infiltrated into the less illuminated Indo-Aryan mentalities.´
   [Evola, “The Doctrine of Awakening” p. 29]

   However, if by ´genetic inheritance´ you mean ´of, relating to, or influenced by the origin or development of something´ or ´occurring among members of a family usually by heredity´ you are right*. However you’ll not find Evola use or promote genomics in “Revolt…”. Yet that is not to say he was totally against such qualitative methods.

   ´Evola was prepared to accept some of the conclusions of the “positive” science of genetics, acknowledging the in?uence of the “materialistic” laws governing the Mendelian transmission of hereditary traits from parents to subsequent ?lial generations, but he was to make an emphatic point of what he called “idiovariations”—unpredictable genetic mutations in hereditary transmission between generations—to make a case for the in?uence, from “on high,” of “superbiological” and “spiritual” forces in the shaping of races. For Evola, spiritual forces shaped races for their own inscrutable purposes. Geneticists, Evola argued, failed to provide a compelling account of how mutations occur. He maintained, as a consequence, that “the cause is to be found elsewhere, in the actions of a superbiological element not reducible to the determinism of the physical transmission of genetic materials.”´
   [Gregor, James A., “Mussolini’s Intellectual’s”]

   * ´It is impossible to trace many of the citations to the English translation of the Rivolta contro il mondo moderno. In the English
   translation, some of the edge of Evola’s racismis blunted. For example, on page 36 of Revolt against the Modern World (Rochester, Vt.: Inner Traditions International, 1995) there is simply talk of “pre-Aryan races” rather than “the black non-Aryan race” as it is found in the original Italian version (Rivolta contro il mondo moderno, p. 59). Similar instances recur throughout the translation. Instead of “the Nordic-Atlantic race” in the Italian edition
   (p. 252), for instance, we ?nd “races of the second cycle” in the English translation (p. 195). “Nordic-Heroic” in the Italian (p. 344) becomes “heroic Aryan-Western” in English (p. 264) and the “Nordic-Aryan” becomes simply “Aryan.” The “pure Aryan race” referred to in the Italian edition as originally of “Nordic stock” (p. 253) becomes a “?rst major group” in English (p. 197). None of these changes conceal the fundamentally racist character of the
   text, of course, but there seems to be a tendency to suppress its “Nordic” emphasis—as perhaps too reminiscent of National Socialism. (Compare, for example, pages 230 and 231 in the English to pages 302 and 303 in the Italian.) While Evola was clear about the relative
   insigni?cance of the physical attributes of race, he did acknowledge that the “original Hyperboreans,” with which he was critically concerned, were probably “dolicocephalic (long-headed), tall and slender, blond, and blue-eyed.” (Evola, Sintesi di dottrina della razza,p. 67). He seemed to identify them with the “pure Nordics” of National Socialist doctrine.´
   [Gregor, James A., “Mussolini’s Intellectual’s”]

   Loading...

8. As usual much of this discussion is due to the unavoidable imperfections of expression. If by ´genetic inheritance´ you mean ´of, relating to, or influenced by the origin or development of something´ or ´occurring among members of a family usually by heredity´ you are right*. However you’ll not find Evola use or promote genomics in “Revolt…”. Yet that is not to say he was totally against such qualitative methods.

   ´Evola was prepared to accept some of the conclusions of the “positive” science of genetics, acknowledging the in?uence of the “materialistic” laws governing the Mendelian transmission of hereditary traits from parents to subsequent ?lial generations, but he was to make an emphatic point of what he called “idiovariations”—unpredictable genetic mutations in hereditary transmission between generations—to make a case for the in?uence, from “on high,” of “superbiological” and “spiritual” forces in the shaping of races. For Evola, spiritual forces shaped races for their own inscrutable purposes. Geneticists, Evola argued, failed to provide a compelling account of how mutations occur. He maintained, as a consequence, that “the cause is to be found elsewhere, in the actions of a superbiological element not reducible to the determinism of the physical transmission of genetic materials.”´
   [Gregor, James A., “Mussolini’s Intellectual’s”]

   * ´It is impossible to trace many of the citations to the English translation of the Rivolta contro il mondo moderno. In the English
   translation, some of the edge of Evola’s racismis blunted. For example, on page 36 of Revolt against the Modern World (Rochester, Vt.: Inner Traditions International, 1995) there is simply talk of “pre-Aryan races” rather than “the black non-Aryan race” as it is found in the original Italian version (Rivolta contro il mondo moderno, p. 59). Similar instances recur throughout the translation. Instead of “the Nordic-Atlantic race” in the Italian edition
   (p. 252), for instance, we ?nd “races of the second cycle” in the English translation (p. 195). “Nordic-Heroic” in the Italian (p. 344) becomes “heroic Aryan-Western” in English (p. 264) and the “Nordic-Aryan” becomes simply “Aryan.” The “pure Aryan race” referred to in the Italian edition as originally of “Nordic stock” (p. 253) becomes a “?rst major group” in English (p. 197). None of these changes conceal the fundamentally racist character of the
   text, of course, but there seems to be a tendency to suppress its “Nordic” emphasis—as perhaps too reminiscent of National Socialism. (Compare, for example, pages 230 and 231 in the English to pages 302 and 303 in the Italian.) While Evola was clear about the relative
   insigni?cance of the physical attributes of race, he did acknowledge that the “original Hyperboreans,” with which he was critically concerned, were probably “dolicocephalic (long-headed), tall and slender, blond, and blue-eyed.” (Evola, Sintesi di dottrina della razza,p. 67). He seemed to identify them with the “pure Nordics” of National Socialist doctrine.´
   [Gregor, James A., “Mussolini’s Intellectual’s”]

   Loading...

9. In the Brihad Aryanaka Upanishad, King Janaka instructs the Brahman Yajnavalkya in the nature of higher transcendent realities.

   Evola held that true gnosis was transmitted from Ikshvaku, in REGAL succession, down to Gautama Buddha, who was born into a regal household of the blonf and blue eyed. In other words, of Aryan stock. That is to say a group, for our purposes here, of people with certain genetic characteristics.

   http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=10756

   Loading...

10. @ HOO Contact me through Facebook’s “send a message” feature. Just type in Ted Paliobeis in their search engine. My page is open to everybody. You don’t have to be one of my friends to access my wall. If you are not registered withe Facebook e-mail me at tpalio@yahoo.com

    Loading...

11. Yes, Hoo is correct. The genetic study in India does support the Aryan invasion thesis. Not only that, it also provides very strong evidence for the Hyperborean thesis as well. And it also buttresses the Biblical accounts, both in Genesis and the Book and Enoch, about the “sons of the Gods” and the Nephilim. It also provides interpretive support for Plato’s accounts Atlantis in the Critias.

    And I would be remiss if I did not also mention that Evola speaks of genetic inheritance throughout his “Revolt Against the Modern World”. After all, this is the basis of the caste system. Now, of course, there were exceptions made to this system in exceptional circumstances. And Evola did criticize the Indian caste system has tending to eventually become somewhat too rigid.

    However, as Evola points out in “The Yoga of Power: Tantra, Shakti and the Secret Way”, Tantra jettisons the caste system is since we now live in the Kali Yuga and none of the castes are properly fulfilling their functions. All is disorder and social anarchy reigns supreme. Therefore only the most spiritually pure can achieve liberation, irrespective of caste.

    I merely brought up the genetic evidence from the two universities, one in the US and other in India, because it supports Evola’s contention about the Kshatriya class. As he never tired of pointing out, the Brihad Aryanaka Uphanisahd presents the case of a Kshatritya instucting a Brahmin in the higher truths. The Brahman expresses great shock and surprise, saying that none of Brahams know about such things. The Kshatrirya tells him that his class has not yet told the Brahmans certain things. Quite right. The Brahmans posessed great knowledge. The Kshatriya posessed even greater knowledge.

    Will Durant in his “Our Oriental Heritage”, volume one in his series entitled “The Story of Civilization”, also points out that it is incorrect to say the Brahmin caste is the superior caste; they were merely the assistants of the Kshatriyas. Brahmans equal the spirit and the Kshatriya represent the soul. The spirit is feminine and the soul is masculine. The world spirit in Hebrew is Ruach, which is feminine noun. The masculine principle precedes the feminine in all symbolic cosmologies. Eve comes from Adam. Yin comes from Yang. Shakti comes from Shiva. Binah emanates from Chockmah. Isis proceedes from Osiris in the Egyptian Ennead.

    Rene Guenon is wrong about the primacy of the spirit over the soul. I admire Guenon greatly. But he has made a tremendous mistake in this regard.

    Loading...

12. ´Being a political religion by reason of its framework (that of the various ethnic units) and in view of the greater part of its pantheon, as we shall see, a religion of leaders and not of priests, it is without fanaticism. The poet may be an inspired being seized from time to time by the divine frenzy, but the celebrant is a grave and worthy magistrate. ³Superstition² and foreign (or archaic) ecstatic cults are viewed with disapproval, and sorcery is repressed with severity. However the private practice of magic is widely attested, viz. The Old Indian Atharaveda, the Hittite rituals, many examples in the classical world, among the Celts and Germans.´
    [“General characteristics of Indo-european religion” by Professor Jean Haudry]

    To hell with your local ´spiritual-cuisine´; why are you here? There are enough effeminate ´cultured´ ´civilized´ ´men´ in the global culture who appreciate ´divine India´ and will agree with you and your autochthonous or ´native´, ´indigenous´ considerations. I’d rather gladly be considered a barbarian.

    Even if I were to forget all about Indian caste I wouldn’t lose anything. Castes, or the four circles of social attachment or functional-classes, are an universal phenomena among superior peoples.

    ´The principal axis of the Indo-European pantheon, represented by the division of the gods among the three cosmic and social functions of sovereignty, war and production, is in evidence among all the Indo-European peoples whose traditions are known to us, as are the subdivisions, more or less widely attested, of these functions: dual nature of the first (magic/legal, together with the existence of minor sovereign deities), as of the second (chivalrous/brutal); a greater or lesser degree of development of the third. There exist in addition trifunctional gods, often ancient deities incorporated into the three-function system. See Dumézil 1941, 1952, 1958b; Polomé 1980: 155f.

    […]

    C) The Iranians

    A religious revolution whose date, causes and details are unknown to us transformed gods such as Indra, Rudra and the Nasatya into demons, but spared those the Veda calls asura-, a term which already means ³demons² in the Rigveda; *Mitra becomes the yazata- or ³god² Mithra, and *Varuna the ³wise lord² Ahura Mazda, the supreme god of Mazdaism. The warrior-function, vacant after the rejection of Indra, is entrusted to Vrthraghna, the hypostatic form of one of the former¹s earlier epithets. The third function devolves upon various deities.

    D) The Zoroastrian Reformation
    A second religious revolution brought about by Zarathustra (before the 8th century (Kellens 1988: 13)) turned the Mazdaic religion monotheism to the advantage of Ahura Mazda. On the lines of an ancient process which has been described, abstractions become Beings, the ³Immortal Saints², under the authority of the Supreme God. Dumézil (1945) asserted that the organization of this group of being exactly reflects the three-function model: Mitra has his counterpart in Right Thinking; Varuna in Truth; Indra in Domination; the Nasatya, in the couple Integrity-Immortality; the goddess who accompanies the former, in Correct Thought. But Narten (1982) has shown that the system of the six Immortal Saints does not appear in the Gathas. See also Kellens Pirart (1988: 26 f.).

    E) Ancient Persian religion is little known. The first Achaemenids mention by name only A(h)uramazda, for Zoroastrian or other reasons. But the three-function ideology, to which several formulae, including that of the ³three scourges², bear witness, remains very much alive, and it is tempting to see a revival of it in Artaxerxes II¹s A(h)uramazda, Anahita, Mithra, if indeed this last is already the warrior-god of later times.

    2. The three functions in the Latin and Umbrian pantheons

    The most ancient of Roman triads consists of Jupiter, Mars and Quirinus, whose existence is demonstrated by several accounts and confirmed by that of the Umbrian triad of the Grabovii consisting of Jupiter, Mars and Vofionus. The Latin and Umbrian Jupiter is the sole representative of Sovereignty; elsewhere, he is accompanied by Fides ³Good Faith² or Dius Fidius, representing the legal aspect of the function. Mars is the god of war: a contraction of Mavort-, his name coincides exactly with that of the Vedic Marùt-, if one postulates a metathesis *wr>ru fur the Vedic word. Quirinus is a pale figure, but the etymology of his name *coviri-nus ³master of the assembly of wiro- (³commoners²) points to a third-function god, as does that of his Umbrian counterpart Vofionus>lewdhyono- ³master of the population².

    3. The three functions in the Germanic pantheon

    The Nordic triad of the temple of Old Uppsala (Dumézil 1959: 5 ff.) is also ³functional²: Odin (O.Icel. Odhinn), from wod-ena- ³frenzy-master², particularly in the field of poetic inspiration, is, like Varuna and Jupiter, the representative of sovereignty and, again lik them, the terrible and magic sovereign whose power in the legal sphere is Tyr (O.Icel. Tyr) < Germ. tiwa- (*deywo- ³diurnal²). The second god of the triad is the warrior Thor (O.Icel. Thòrr), the god who wields the hammer, the bane of giants: he starts life as the ³thunder-master² *tnHro-. Thor and Odin both belong to the group of Ases (whose name resembles that of Vedic Asura). The third member, Freyr, belongs to the group of Vanes, gods of well-being, plenty, peace and fertility. At the creation of the world, there had been a ³war of foundation² between Ases and Vanes. See also Polomé 1985a, 1985b, 1988.

    4. The three functions in the Slavic and Baltic pantheon

    In the present state of the evidence, the reliable portion of which is limited to folk-songs of recent origin, it is difficult to arrive at watertight conclusions; Toporov (quoted by Fisher 1970: 148 n.3) has suggested attributing the sovereign function to the Slavic god Stribogu, about whom little is known, with Perunu, a replica of the Nordic Thor, as the representative of the warrior-function and Volosu that of the third function. But the triad is not directly attested. It is, however, among the Balts, if we are to share Fisher¹s (1970: 148 f.) trust in Grunau¹s description of a tapestry showing three gods: a mysterious Pocullus, god of Hell, darkness and the spirits of the dead; Perkunas, who is a second-function god like the Slavic Perunu; and a Potrimpo who, personified by a happily-smiling young man crowned with ears of wheat, represents the third function. Gimbutas 1974b (see also Puhvel 1974b) has shown that Pocullus is none other than Velinas, the ³spirit-master² (whose name today denotes the Christian devil), a god who in more ways than one recalls the Nordic Odin and the Vedic Varuna. Are we to see in Dievas (also absent from the triad), whose name, from *deywòs, coincides exactly with that of Tyr, a sovereign after the manner of Mitra, Fides and Tyr?

    5. The three functions in the Celtic pantheon

    The triad does not occur, but a distribution according to the three roles has been contended in its magical aspect by Lug, identified by the Romans, as in the case of the Germanic *Wodanaz, with Mercury. Alongside him the Irish Dagda ³the good god², a sky-god and for this reason identified with Jupiter tonitruus ­ the Gallic Taranis -, but also a druidic god, represents sovereignty in its ³friendly² and legal aspect, Nodens (Ir. Nuada), the one-armed ³distributor², corresponds by reason of his affliction with the Nordic Tyr, but by his function is closer to the Vedic Bhaga; he is in any event a sovereign god, in spite of his identification with Mars. The warrior-function seems to fall to the lot of the Gallic Ogmios (Ir. Ogme), identified with Hercules. The Irish Diancecht, a physician-god identified with Apollo, and several artisan-gods including the great goddess Brigit, identified with Minerva, typify the third function. But according to Jouet 1993 passim the structure of the Celtic pantheon is to be interpreted in cosmic terms.

    6. The three functions in the Hittite pantheon

    The Hittite religion bears visible traces of the influences of the non-Indo-European religions of Anatolia. Nevertheless, the persistence of the three-function (and three-colour) concept as evidenced by the ritual of mentioning the enemy's gods KUB VII 60 II 20 (Basanoff 1947; Laroche 1964: 25) invites us to examine the pantheon for traces of the earlier division into three functions. The most immediate identification is that of the great third-function god Telepinus who rules over agriculture and whose disappearance paralyses all life on earth. Here as elsewhere, the Sun-god is associated with the role. The other great myth, that of the dragon-killing storm-god, provides a parallel with the Vedic god Indra Vrtrahan, even though Vrtra¹s ³murder² has nothing to do with storms and the material facts of the events are different. The god¹s nature is clearly shown in the oldest of the Hittite texts (Polomé 1987: 203 f.): ³he was dear to the god of the stormy sky and, as he was dear to him, the king of Nesa was undone by the king of Kussara² (Neu 1974: 10 f.); this is equivalent to Indra¹s aiding his proteges in their struggle against their adversaries who are ³hated by Indra². His atmospheric aspect is secondary; Neu has proposed the reading Tarhunnas ³victorious god² for the ideogram DISKUR=DIM (³wind god²) by which he is denoted, a double title which makes simultaneous reference to the Indra who ³breaks down resistance² (vrtraturya-) and the great Indo-Iranian warrior-god Vayu ³wind². The god(dess) Halmasuitt- ³Throne² despite a borrowed name, represents the earthly (third function) sovereignty, and finally the god Sius, identified by Neu with the Indo-European *dyews, has every chance of being a heavenly (first function) sovereign god like Zeus, Jupiter or Tyr; in any case, he is closely associated with the king who addresses him as Sius mis ³my (God) Sius². This Sius is replaced first by a god and then by a goddess of the sun, whose name in the classical vocabulary means ³royal majesty²; we have here the idea of a solar charisma, the analogue of the Avestic xvarnah . As in the case of the Celts, however, the triad is not formally attested, and the division of the Hittite pantheon into three functions thus remains an hypothesis. See also Masson 1991.

    7. The three functions in the Armenian pantheon

    Little is known of the Armenian pantheon. Our knowledge of the gods is sometimes limited to their names, and these latter are often borrowings from the Iranian. It is nevertheless possible to trace in it the three-function structure, as de Lamberterie (1983: 3 ff.) has shown. In an edict designed to reaffirm paganism, at the time under threat, King Tiridates, addressing his subjects, places them under the protection of the gods: ³May salvation and prosperity be yours with the help of the gods: plenteous fertility from noble Aramazd, prudence from the lady Anahit, valiance from valiant Vahagn². Vahagn is, like the Iranian Vrthraghna whose name he bears, a warrio-god (Dumézil 1938c). We are surprised on the other hand to find the third function (³plenteous fertility²) devolving upon a god who bears the name of Ahura Mazda, and inversely to find a goddess, Iranian Anahita, presiding over sovereignty. But this is merely the proof that the Armenian triad is original and not borrowed; and, as de Lamberterie concludes, ³the important thing is in any case that the three benefits granted by the gods directly reflect the Indo-European three-function ideology².

    8. The Greek pantheon and the three functions

    Greece offers the surprising example of a tradition which the poetic formulary shows to be particularly faithful and in whose legends the three-function model is present (Dumézil 1953) to such an extent that the philosopher Plato makes it the organizational principle of his ideal city-state, although the structure of the pantheon owes nothing to such a model; for, despite the existence of a sovereign god, Zeus, a warrior-god, Ares, and several third-function gods, we encounter neither functional triad nor function-based groups (except Pindar, Nem. 10. 112 f.); and above all, there are great gods, Apollo, Atremis, Athene, Poseidon and the rest, who do not fit into the framework of the three functions. An interesting negative example, this case demonstrates a contrario the significance of the trifunctional interpretation in the case of pantheons to which this latter is applicable. It also shows that the three-function structure is not the sole organizing principle of the Indo-European pantheon. The original Greek pantheon is structured, certainly, but around another principle, that of the ³three-skies² and their colours, together with the daily, annual and cosmic time-cycles. An annual drama lies behind the union of the sovereign couple, that of Zeus (*dyew-, ³day-sky²) and Hera (*yera-, ³fair season of the year²), originally an annual union symbolizing the yearly return of light after the night of winter, an alternation equally embodied by that of Apollo and Dionysus at the temple of Delphi. Athene and Aphrodite (Friedrich 1970), one and the other ³daughters of Zeus², are opposite and complementary aspects of the Indo-European Dawn who is at one and the same time warrior and mistress; the spring, the year¹s dawn, is the season of love and at the same time marks the beginning of the period of military campaigns which lasts through till the autumn.

    9. From the three skies to the three functions

    If the original structure of the Greek pantheon is inherited, as everything seems to indicate, it must represent a very early stage of Indo-European conceptualization, for while it seems impossible to explain this structure in terms of the three-function model, the contrary represents no problem. The gods of the day-sky like Zeus become sovereign deities ruling over the rest of the gods, *deywos ³them of the day-ski². Those of the red (dawn and sunset) sky were split up between war and the ³third function², where they joined divinities of the demons, as did the Asura (originally: ³lords², but understood as ³masters of the Other World² or ³deprived of sunlight² then ³Devils²) in India. But on the other hand the chief god of the night-sky, initially associated with that of the day-sky with whom he alterned, sometimes became (as in Germanic mythology) even superior to the latter. This gives rise to the double sovereignty whose cosmic origin is still visible in the Germanic, Baltic and Indo-Iranian pantheons´
    ["General characteristics of Indo-european religion" by Professor Jean Haudry]

    Loading...

13. 37.“He wrote ´a genetic analysis of the population conducted 7 or 8 years ago showed that the Kshatriya class in India had the highest proportion of foreign DNA of a European origin. The Brahmins were a somewhat close second.´”

    I do not know who conducts these studies, did it take every singgle Brahmin around into account? Where did it take the Kshatriyas from? Kshatriyas in being Kings are more liable to mix with other ethnicities to make political alliances than are Brahmins who marry stricly within their own ethnicities. There are vast regional differences in ethnicities, however, a Brahmin has the same culture whatever the region, as does a Kshatriya, wherever he may be from. These kinds of studies are absurd in my estimation. I wonder why it is that certain people are so grasping that everything has to some from them? Oh and I forgot HOO is descended from Hypoboreans which makes HOO related to the best of antiquity regardless of whatever his background might be, as a descendant of Hypoboreans he is more knowldegable about Persians than a Zoroastrian, in fact purer than a Zoroastrian who has been one for as far as he can see, knows more about that religion than a Dastoor who has been following the ways of his forefathers, purer in ethnicity than a Brahmin who often can have geneologies dating up to a thousand years (this was Buhler’s amazement when he found even village Brahmins to have such long geneolgies)…Oh yes, and somewhere down the line he is also related to King Tut by virtue of his Hyperobrean relations.…In short, thats what this absurd logic amounts to.

    As for caste nothing exists which is quite the same in Europe. You can find heirarchies of a similar nature, but you cannot find something the same as caste, which is why scholars ultimately tire of drawing parallels and do not do so. Moreover, another absurdity of Ted’s anlaysis is he tries to use Christian concepts to draw similarities which are not adquate when analyzing something which has no relation to Christianity and is prior to it in time. It is not us who obsess with caste, it seems to exert fascination on others; people are content to be what they have always been; Brahmins who have been Brahmins for 3000 years would understand caste I suppose than some mchlecca who is altogether outside of caste and the religion, who likes to lecture those who belong to a tradition he is neither a part of nor understands…Just amazing, what can one say and who is acting as troll? Is it not better to stick with that which you DO understand and which DOES belong to you?

    Loading...

14. “He wrote ´a genetic analysis of the population conducted 7 or 8 years ago showed that the Kshatriya class in India had the highest proportion of foreign DNA of a European origin. The Brahmins were a somewhat close second.´”

    I do not know who conducts these studies, did it take every singgle Brahmin around into account? Where did it take the Kshatriyas from? Kshatriyas in being Kings are more liable to mix with other ethnicities to make political alliances than are Brahmins who marry stricly within their own ethnicities. There are vast regional differences in ethnicities, however, a Brahmin has the same culture whatever the region, as does a Kshatriya, wherever he may be from. These kinds of studies are and absurd. I wonder why it is that certain people are so grasping that everything has to some from them? Oh and I forgot HOO is descended from hypoboreans which makes HOO related to the best of antiquity regardless of whatever his background might be, as a hypoborean he is more knowldegable about Persians than a Zoroastrian, in fact purer than a Zoroastrian who has been one for as far as he can see, purer in ethnicity than a Brahmin who often can have geneologies dating up to a thousand years (this was Buhler’s amazement amongst even village Brahmins)…Oh yes, and somewhere down the line he is also related to King Tut by virtue of his Hyperobrean relations…In short thats what this logic amounts to.

    As for caste nothing exists which is quite the same in Europe. You can find heirarchies of a similar nature, but you cannot find something the same as caste, which is why scholars ultimately tire of drawing parallels. Moreover, another absurdity of Ted’s anlaysis is he tries to use Christian concepts to draw similarities which is not adquate when analyzing something which has no relation to it and is prior to it in time. It is not us who obsess with caste, it seems to exert fascination on others; people are content to be what they have always been; Brahmins who have been Brahmins for 3000 years would understand caste I suppose than some mchlecca who is altogether outside of caste and the religion, who likes to lecture those who belong to a tradition he is neither a part of or understands…Just amazing, what can one say and who is acting as troll? Is it not better to stick with that which you DO understand and which DOES belong to you?

    Loading...

15. Cologero you misunderstood, when I wrote ´We could build our case without referring to India at all.´ I was referring to the troll’s (for he is impossible to discuss with in that he does not counter points but seems to ceaselessly ramble) assertion that ´Westerners do not understand caste for the simple reason that there is nothing in Europe which is similar to it…It is not quite the same as the feudal heirarchies in Europe although there are some similarities.´

    I don’t think Ted said anywhere that functional-class was merely/only genetically determined. He wrote ´a genetic analysis of the population conducted 7 or 8 years ago showed that the Kshatriya class in India had the highest proportion of foreign DNA of a European origin. The Brahmins were a somewhat close second.´
    Why would you be opposed to him mentioning such evidence? It only supports the Aryan-invasion thesis.

    As for Evola on relation of caste and race, here’s one example.

    ´The expression ‘humilitas causam dicentium’ refers to the inferiority and the guilt of those who are taken before the court. Once again, we can see an overlap with the idea of race or caste. ‘Humilis parentis natus’ meant being born of the people in the pejorative sense, that is to say, born of the ‘mob’, as opposed to noble birth, with, that is, a significant difference compared to the modern sense of the expression ‘lower classes,’ especially if we consider that the sole criterion of social standing is now the economic criterion.´ [Evola, “L’Arco e la clava”]

    “The only point we must take with a grain of salt in the texts is
    the affirmation that in individuals of all castes all possible
    potentialities, both positive and negative, exist in equal measure.
    But the Buddhist theory of sankhara, that is, of prenatal
    predispositions, is enough to rectify this point. The exclusiveness
    of caste, race, and tradition in a hierarchical system results in
    the individual possessing hereditary predispositions for his
    development in a particular direction; this ensures an organic and
    harmonious character in his development, as opposed to the cases in
    which an attempt is made to reach the same point with a kind of
    violence, by starting from a naturally unfavorable base.”
    [Evola, “The Historical Context of the Doctrine of Awakening”]

    Loading...

16. Also with matters regarding genetics, it strikes me that an emphasis on the cultural archetypes governing a man is the only way in which racial differences can be neutralized, but this takes generations, as it takes generations for a community to have a culture, which on the other hand, does not take too long to be destroyed by barbarians…One would have to be very clear as well as to what cultural archetypes marks the superior man in order to effectively produce people with such qualities in society…While man is not merely a horse, cultural conditioning is of paramount importance, just as we see the effects of a degenerate conditioning today, a positive conditioning would only come about when those in power in society agree on what marks a superior man, and perhaps this is what Evola means by race of the spirit…

    Loading...

17. “9.Aristotle is writing very late in the transience of this planet (writing itself being a late degeneration), the split already being quite antique in his age; his perspective thus reflecting that.”

    This has nothing to do with what I am saying. Plato also writes with suspicion of the written word in dialogues such as the Phaedrus which is about writing, the teacher and direct association and contact with the teacher is emphasized as the written word can be corrupted. This is why in Vedic times students would leaves their homes and live in the forest with the Guru to learn from him for a number of years…And even in Plato you see that the people who would rather live in the isles of the blessed in the Rebpulic take an interest in political affairs out of a compulsion owing to a fear that affairs would degenerate to a worse state of things were they not to take part in organizing the city. Regardless of the origins of caste, the qualities become so second nature that even genetics becomes secondary, the qualities take precedence, and you are able to transcend merely genetics, the caste function becomes like an archetype for a certain type of individual which the system propagates…which is why later people who were not part of the original Vedic Kshatriyas but initially tribals like Rajputs could adopt these ideals for themselves and display the same kind of bravery as the Vedic Kshatriyas (which is before they get corrupted, by the way, their corruption is not because they lose their “racial” sense, but because they compromise with the enemy, they become content to accept the “cultural” ideals of the enemy and compromise in this manner…).

    Loading...

18. So, Hoo, how exactly does the existence of white tri-functional caste societies make Ted’s case, which has no support from Evola, Guenon, not even from Dumezil.
    To wit, these are Ted’s points:
    1) The ksatriya is superior to the brahmana caste (not so, see p89 of Revolt, English translation)
    2) Caste membership is genetically determined (not so, “one is born in a specific caste because one possesses transcendentally a given spirit”, p 92, specifically NOT because one possesses a given genetic makeup)
    3) Members of the ksatriya caste in India have more “hyperborean” genes (and you guys think Mrs. Kadambari is off-base? Guess again)
    4) There exists a “scientific” study that reveals the percentage of European genes among the ksatriyas … down to the decimal point)

    I don’t know why you are encouraging him.

    Loading...

19. I have noticed one thing: kadambari does not say specifically where I am wrong. His comments are pitched at an extremely level of generality.

    Loading...

20. Well you can go on in your tiny world and think whatever you please, you can think of caste, the Buddha and what not as you please. It does not change the truth that is out there.
    In our college, I recall that there was a certain minimum which was required before one can even begin to discuss certain matters, or was able to take a certain class. It was called prerequisites. Would it not be funny if my knowledge of Greeks were to come from Evola and not an an acquaintance with Greek authors or the language. Quoting second hand means nothing, if one has not examined these things for oneself, and a great deal of confusion would be avoided if people were to simply read and attain a minimum before they discuss…and not get too high on quotations, and discuss material they have actually digested…

    Loading...

21. And one last thing…And one last thing…And one last thing…And one last thing…And one last thing… ad nauseum.

    Loading...

22. Hoo,
    At least I have read through the Bible once. Similarly, if those self-proclaimed pundits of caste, Buddhism, and spokesmen for Eastern thought were to go through our texts and learn what they actually teach (which would take them a while, as it is not all condensed in one book), inane discussions as to whether the Brahmin or Kshatriya is superior would simply not arise…and people would realize how redundant such discussions are to those who understand the civilizational context that produces these distinctions in the first place…

    Loading...

23. Hoo,
    A tradition is eternal when the core of its teachings and ideals can withstand time, and it is these “eternal” aspects that a proper study of tradition will concern itself with, all else becomes irrelevant…Ofen revival takes place in the most unlikeliest of places… who would have thought that the Chinese, an irrelevant nation thirty years ago would be exerting so much weight today and be cause for worry whatever one may think of the regime? I would not be so arrogant, the world is not so small a place as you think…

    Loading...

24. “What you call your living tradition is the rotten shell of what perhaps was one. In any case it is corruption in most ways possible of what used to be a possibly working Dravidian + Indo-European mix ´tradition´. I don’t know if it’s worth more than any local tradition of cuisine and superstitious rites.”

    Again you do not get it when you say “worth more”, it is not a question of worth more or less, never have I asserted it to be “worth more”…I am simply speaking of a living tradition, when something is living, it can be revived…by those who can properly understand a tradition and can contribute to preserving its ideals…Corruption or not, I do not see the core of these ideals and its teachings jeopardized in any way, which is why the tradition is referred to as “eternal”…

    Loading...

25. I will not enter any debate with you. I care very little for historics.
    We could build our case without referring to India at all.

    Most if not all these white (meta)ethnicities have established trifunctional (caste) societies, more than history shall ever know (all around this planet): Illyrians, Macedonians, Celts, Romans, Etruscans, Persians, Greeks, Germanics, Anatolians, Tyrrhenians, Tocharians, Egyptians, Armenians, Slavs and Messapians.

    This Indo-European empire for example gets little mention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

    Loading...

26. ” …does not understand the fundamentals of this project…”

    If the fundamentals of this project is to understand tradition, and to speak the truth as it asserts, then the truth must be laid out bare in the open…I have merely asserted that Ted is trying to build an incomplete understanding from second hand quoations, these things are understood when the civilization that created them is understood, not in isolation. It is just not a simple tidy question of “superior” vs “inferior”…one has to understand how is one defining “surperior” then one can discuss properly when it comes to caste…

    And for those who have asserted that Eastern thinkig is opposed to Western thinking, it has not been historically opposed to it ever as far as I can see (the thinking of the Greeks does not appear alien at all to us when we are exposed to it, far less alien than the Middle Eastern religious systems), just perhaps in the more modern rationlalism of the West, which it is fast copying…

    Loading...

27. ´´Also for us, it is a matter of a human type whom nature no longer interests by offering him what is “artistic,” rare, characteristic; he who no longer seeks in nature the “beauty” that merely feeds confused nostalgias and speaks to fantasy. For this human type, there can be no landscapes more beautiful than another, but some landscapes can be more distant, boundless, calm, cool, harsh, and primordial than others. He hears the language of things of the world not among trees, brooks, beautiful gardens, before oleographic sunsets and romantic moon-light, but rather in deserts, rocks, steppes, glaciers, murky Nordic fjörds, the implacable, tropical sun, great ocean currents-in fact, in everything primordial and inaccessible.´
    [“Ride the Tiger” p. 125]´

    Loading...

28. What you call your living tradition is the rotten shell of what perhaps was one. In any case it is corruption in most ways possible of what used to be a possibly working Dravidian + Indo-European mix ´tradition´. I don’t know if it’s worth more than any local tradition of cuisine and superstitious rites.
    Your dead shell of a ´tradition´ will probably degenerate even more, at an exponential rate in the next few decades as it has already made way for a ´soul-less world of machines, of technology, of modern mega-cities´*. It, along with any book-ridden romanticist or nostalgic Western traditionalists, will belong to the deep downtrodden and forgotten putrefactioning layers of the cyborg New World Global Order.
    Only those already with an element of transcendence within, able to accept ´and of all that is sheer reality and objectivity, which appears cold, inhuman, menacing, devoid of intimacy, depersonalizing, and barbaric´* will have any spiritual significance of note.
    [*”Ride the Tiger” p. 110]

    ´Also for us, it is a matter ?f a human type whom nature ?? longer interests by offering him what is “artistic,” rare, characteristic; he who n? longer seeks in nature the “beauty” that merely feeds confused nostalgias and speaks to fantasy. For this human type, there can be ?? land-scape more beautiful than another, but some landscapes can be more distant, boundless, calm, cool, harsh, and primordial than others. He hears the language ?f things ?f the world not among trees, brooks,
    beautiful gardens, before oleographic sunsets and romantic moon-light, but rather in deserts, rocks, steppes, glaciers, murky Nordic fjörds, the implacable, tropical sun, great ocean currents-in fact, i? everything primordial and inaccessible.´
    [“Ride the Tiger” p. 125]

    Loading...

29. And one last thing Hoo,
    You who claim to understand these things so well, have you read the teachings yourself before you begin quoting second hand? I suggest giving that a try. Good luck because it will take quite some time as these things are all intertwined and cannot be viewed in parts or in isolation, and the teachings are not all condensed to neatly fit in one book. You are are perhaps accustomed to neatly order everything in tidy categories. I think sometimes one does not even realize how to respond to comments like Ted’s because the reply itself makes one ignorant! Are you going to discuss physics with someone who has not even attempted first year physics?

    Loading...

30. @Hoo
    As for Evola, I have read a few books, some interesting things in them and some insights into the heirarchical nature of traditional societies, more impressed by the first readings, but gradually wears off of you as there is something missing in the man…and one tries to find that missing link so that understanding is more complete…a great deal of what he says on tradition and heirarchy is common knowledge for those who are still from traditional societies which are rapidly changing and have been with the same religion for as far back as they can see, the best way to understand a tradition is to still be a part of it…Which is why we get upset only when our tradition is misrepresentd and do not care to misrepresent that of others.

    Loading...

31. @HOO
    That is funny, as a member of a still authentic living tradition founded by our direct ancestors, I think it funny to read its misrepresentations by people who neither belong to it, nor understand it…We have an interest and duty not only in preserving the basic tenets of it, but also have an interest to prevent its adulteration from misrepresentations by the ignorant comments on caste such as the one above. Anyone can cherry pick and quote some people without having even bothered to understand a tradition…I can tell you most of these people can’t even read a word of the language which comprises the teachings of the tradition they claim to be so knowledgale about, so second hand is their knowledge, but ignorance is bliss, and the ignorant are the most sure of thenmselves…

    Loading...

32. Excellent points Ted. I’ll advise you to just ignore kadambari, he doesn’t even agree with the fundamentals of this project nor has he even read Evola. Hopefully he’ll leave one day.

    Please Ted, send me you email address to chinatown @ suremail.info

    Loading...

33. @TED
    Not to be rude, but Westerners do not understand caste for the simple reason that there is nothing in Europe which is similar to it…It is not quite the same as the feudal heirarchies in Europe although there are some similarities. Westerners fail to understand the most important aspect of caste which was the preservation of a certain way of life and certain spiritual values…I am not speaking of the later degeneration of caste after the arrival of Islam, but it was not as inflexible as people think, but becomes rigid for historical reasons… Jainism and Buddhism provided outlets for people who found it restrictive, but these religions in no way threatened the heirarchical world view of the original system, which is why there is very little religious conflict in the sub-continent which only begins with the arrival of the religions from the Mid East which have an entirely different conception of religion….
    So it is just funny for us when we read accounts like the one you give…

    Loading...

34. But Evola does not, of course, reject the Hyperborean thesis. The influence of genetics and of the blood is transmitted to the descendents of the Hyperboreans, after their coupling with mortal women. Is this not a key component of traditonal teaching?

    Loading...

35. Unfortunately, Ted, Evola never said what you say he said, just the opposite, in fact.
    In the Chapter “Regression of Castes” in Revolt, he writes, regarding the process of regression:

    “Authority descended to the level immediately below, that is, to the caste of the warrior.”
    Hence, the warrior caste was never the first caste.

    As for the genetic component, Evola specifically rejects this:
    “regality of blood replaced regality of the spirit.” (which he considers a negative development)

    Please end this discussion.

    Loading...

36. My purpose, of course, was not to describe the entire Indian caste system. I was merely discussing the rank of the various castes in light of esoteric teaching and genetic evidence.

    Loading...

37. Ted’s comments are just hilarious in terms of absurdity…and so ignorant, please do not try to describe Indiic caste system with your desert cult which has a Middle Eastern origin and is completely unrelated to the religions of the East…Just because you are stuck with that religion does not mean that people in the East care about some random events in Galilee, their religions have a far older origin and remain unaffected by anything coming from the deserts of the Middle East except in the damage the latter has done to the religious outlook of the East…

    Loading...

38. Well, I can certainly see that my hesitation in bringing up these things was fully justified! LOL

    In any event, Evola would most likely say that one’s position in life–and that includes what family and hence what genetic influence that one carried within oneself– was determined by one’s past Karma. That is certainly what traditional Hinduism would say.

    But here is another rather odd wrinkle:none of genetic inheritance in India was passed on through women. No mitochondrial DNA can be found responsible for this Aryan genetic inheritance. All of it can be attributed to the male Y chromosome. Now, curiously enough, the book of Genesis speaks of the “Sons of the Gods” who took human women for their wives and then bore them children. Immediately after this, it mentions that the Nephilim were subsequently upon the earth. The world was then convulsed by sin and inquity and had to be destroyed with a flood. This may very well be a coded reference to Atlantis.

    It was the “Sons of the Gods” who sired the Nephilim. In other words, they were all males. So, stunningly enough, the genetic evidence from India seems to confirm the Biblical account in Genesis. If these invading Aryans had no women with them, then how were they born? I mean it doesn’t stand to reason that a large Aryan invasion force would have no women at all amogst them. Yet this appears to be the case. So, as amazing as this sounds, they may very well have been a race directly created by God. This, of course, is a hard thing to accept. It sounds like bad sci-fi. But the evidence points in this direction.

    Given this, we see that the Kshatriya class in India had the highest proportion of this Aryan genetic influence. This, then, would have made them closest in proxmity to the divine or semi-divine race. And, in turn, this would place them in a higher ontological state or position than the Brahmans.

    http://articles.sfgate.com/1999-05-26/news/17687471_1_caste-system-genes-y-chromosome One must click on the page 2 on the bottom of the above link to access the second part of the above article.

    Loading...

39. Wow, Ted, life would be so much easier in your sand-castle in the sky. Instead of having to prove his valor, intelligence, strength, virtue or leadership skills, all a man would have to do is display his genome and the masses of his genetic inferiors would make him dictator by popular acclaim.

    And it is remarkable that men with high proportion of European DNA were or are incapable of performing the tasks appropriate to “lower” castes such as medicine, architecture, law, scientific research, art, and so on.

    You obviously use Evola to support your claim (show us where he said the Kshatriya is superior because of his genetic stream); you may want to supplement this comment with what Evola says about the race of the spirit and the race of the body.

    And explain to us, Ted, how these little factoids lead up to a spiritual transformation. Or should we prefer to sit around in despair cursing ourselves for not having chosen better parents?

    Loading...

40. I hesitate to go into this…but here goes anyway.

    The Hyperboreans. A divine or semi-divine race which lived within the northern circumpolar region. Due to glaciation brought on by physical or meta-physical reasons, or perhaps both, they gradually moved south. In India, they were known as the Aryans.

    In Genesis Chapter 6, as well as in the Book of Enoch, there is mention of the “Nephilim” or the “Watchers”. Without going into detail here, which in any event can by found Evola’s “Revolt Against the Modern World”, this myth refers to the interbreeding of this race with the local populations with which they came into contact with. The progeny were the Nephilim or the Watchers, and they had superior abilities, both physical and metaphysical, than did the common run of “humanity”. As Plato says in the Critias, when Posiedon mated with human woman on Atlantis, the progeney which resulted remained pure and noble until the human admixture became predominant. At that point they became corrupt. And Atlantis was destroyed, either through war, technological catastrophe, the misuse of magic or by an act of higher powers. The underlying cause of this destruction, of course, was the corruption of its population.

    In India, a genetic analysis of the population conducted 7 or 8 years ago showed that the Kshatriya class in India had the highest proportion of foreign DNA of a European origin. The Brahmins were a somewhat close second. And the other two castes were far distant.

    This seems consistent with Evola’s contention that the Kshatriya class was the superior; the Hyperborean/Aryans set up those most close to the original genetic stream, the Kshatriyas, as the rulers, and then selected the close second Brahmins to be their assistants.

    Loading...

41. The Greek term “Deinos” captures the respect and awe which superior beings evoked…

    Loading...

42. Aristotle is writing very late in the transience of this planet (writing itself being a late degeneration), the split already being quite antique in his age; his perspective thus reflecting that.

    Loading...

43. …While Kings could have contempt for Brahmins as Kings, they also feared their knowledge and purity, and many sages had contempt for the life of the ruler or administrator and were feared and admired due to their wisdom, and even Kings feared the sages…In the Politics, Aristotle places the life of contemplation above the political life which is interesting, the enlightened man goes into it by a kind of necessity…

    Loading...

44. Superior in this case must mean more potency and true knowledge, which is power; and thus a level above. Lords are Lords, and never has the world known equality but in the fantasies of man.

    superior (adj.)
    late 14c., “higher in position,” from O.Fr. superior, from L. superiorem (nom. superior) “higher,” comparative of superus “situated above, upper,” from super “above, over” (see super-). Meaning “higher in rank or dignity” is attested from late 15c.; sense of “of a higher nature or character” is attested from 1530s. Noun meaning “person of higher rank” is attested from late 15c. Original sense was preserved more strongly in French (cf. les étages supérieur “the upper stories”), and in Lake Superior, a loan-translation of Fr. Lac Supérieur, lit. “upper lake” (it has the highest elevation of the five Great Lakes).

    hierarkhes “high priest, leader of sacred rites,” from ta hiera “the sacred rites” (neut. pl. of hieros “sacred;” see ire) + arkhein “to lead, rule” (see archon). Sense of “ranked organization of persons or things” first recorded 1610s, initially of clergy, probably influenced by higher.

    I submit that in antediluvian eons, the superiors, of what we know now as men, were a pre-caste and above-caste society of martial-mages (as if we could describe such presence in our words). According to cosmic law these beings declined, thus their society declined, into the states and later into civilization of castes which now have declined into modernity. Most into these matters, called e.g. spirituality, nowadays embody far more the spirit of late Traditional civilization than of the spirit of the eldricht primarchs (who know not the laws of men).

    Loading...

45. We have always written about the castes in terms of their roles and the type of persons of which they consist. This has nothing to do with “superiority” or “inferiority”, except only incidentally. The role of the Kshatriya is to rule and administer. If that is what you mean by “superior”, it really adds nothing.

    Loading...

46. But for what it is worth: Evola does cite the Brihad Aranyaka Upanishad, in which a Kshatriya instructs a Brahmin, and when the Brahmin expresses surprise at his knowledge he replies that there were some secrets that the Kshatriyas still have not told the Brahmins. This is connected with Tantra, by the way. I don’t have time to go into this right now. Perhaps tommorow.

    One last thing: In Volume One of Will Durant’s “The Story of Civiliztion”(“Our Oriental Heritage”), he asserts that orginally the Kshatriya class was superior to the Brahmins, who were their assistants. Ananda Coommarasawmy was one of the Durant’s main consultants on this volumne.

    Loading...

47. I had no idea when I started this whole thing months ago that it would still be going on! LOL

    Loading...

48. So what we would normally conceive as emerging in and from the invisible world to “manifest”, Evola considers to have had an actual physical emergence in its own invisibility? For those who could see?

    Loading...

49. Evola seems to question the necessity of consecration. To him, it only becomes necessary in later, more decadent periods when sacerdotal temporal power begins to encroach on the regal. The true Brahman, in Evola’s interpretation, would not need consecration since his spiritual authority speaks for itself. Divine Right cannot be granted except by the spirit itself, so in his highest formation, the Chief would not need consecration.

    Loading...

50. Could one say that there is a difference between ecclesiastical/bureaucratic unity and visible unity?

    Loading...