A couple of weeks ago, we asked about the available options for initiation for Western men today. Although the first two options got the most votes, the third one seems to have generated the most interest.
Read Dante’s Divine Comedy in Italian
Men attracted to Tradition today are, or should be, interested in the idea of initiation, that is, how to begin on a spiritual path that goes beyond mere book knowledge. However, in our situation we cannot just let George to it. Now, Rene Guenon, who certainly has read a great deal of initiatic texts, asserts that the two Medieval poems – Dante’s Divine Comedy and The Romance of the Rose – are of the same quality. Where then are those who claim to be interested in a Western initiation?
There are three obstacles. So called Christians in our day are embarrassed by or indifferent to their spiritual masters, and prefer a watered-down version. The most disheartening are the self-loathing Europeans who reject anything from that period in the name of some fictitious past. They regard that period as an unfortunate interlude from a glorious past, rather than as the development and deepening understanding of that past.
The real reason may be that there are no men capable of understanding such texts. The Comedy represents a long symbolic journey incorporating ancient paganism, Medieval philosophy, and a deep metaphysic. The developmental stages are described in detail. The obstacles to success are enumerated. It also incorporates a true eroticism with the vision of Beatrice. Dante was influenced by the Sicilian poets who, in turn, had incorporated erotic elements from the Troubadours of Provence and Islamic poets.
The rehabilitation of these texts should be among the prime concerns for those interested in the Western Tradition.
Meditate in a Cave in Tibet
This turn to the East is often made today, whether to some school of Hinduism or some form of Buddhism. This requires an understanding of linguistic elements much more alien than Medieval Italian or Latin. Furthermore, cultural accretions get mixed up with genuine teaching, especially since the former are much easier to adopt. It reminds me of Ananda Coomaraswamy’s turn to Tradition after he noticed Indian women dressing like Europeans in his native Ceylon.
Dressing up like a swami or a Tibetan monk does not make you such. In our day, one should know several people who have turned to the East. What have they gained beyond a new set of dogmas? Please observe such people with detachment before choosing this route. If you don’t know anyone personally, just check out some of the most influential Westerners associated with Tibetan Buddhism.
Practice Sex Magic
This certainly has more appeal than the first two choices. It has the advantage of being egalitarian and democratic. Unlike reading long poems or spending hours in meditation, sex (and drugs) can be done by anyone. However, we suggested that references to sexual union should be taken as symbolic, just as we do with alchemical texts. We also suggested that, if it is not merely symbolic, then it is reserved to those who don’t desire sex or treat it instrumentally rather than erotically (e.g. Crowley). We even referenced Miguel Serrano, as the expositor of the highest, i.e., non-physical, Tantra teachings.
These references bring little interest. As the contrarian, Julius Evola brings in another view. In his essay “Libertà del sesso e libertà dal sesso” (Sexual freedom and freedom from sex), included in L’Arco e la Clava, he writes:
We affirm that in every complete traditional civilization … the ascetic and warrior values were able to be cultivated along with erotic values, with reference to different paths and different vocations. So for example in India we find a “path of desire” (kama-marga) along with that of knowledge (vidya-marga), that of ascesis (tapas-marga) and that of action (karma-marga). India itself, as well as China and Islam, show us the co-existence of an androcratic regime, that is, supported on masculine supremacy, with a very highly developed erotic life.
Although this is not quite right, since the three paths of renunciation are those of knowledge, devotion, and action, Evola introduces here a major blunder. The path of desire is not considered a way of liberation or deliverance. To the contrary, it is the path of the ordinary man; such a man, whose mind and will are dominated by desire, ought to fulfill such desires rather than go against his own nature. On the other hand, the man who sees the emptiness in the pursuit of sexual desire, wealth, and fame is able to move on to one of the paths that lead to deliverance. This blunder renders moot everything Evola writes on this topic. For example, in the Metaphysics of Sex:
The ontological principles of Shiva and Shakti or of other equivalent deities present in the bodies of the man and woman are realized; it is necessary to arrive ritually and sacramentally at a state where the man actually feels himself to be Shiva and the young woman Shakti. This is the precondition of a sexual union that must transcend the limitations of physical and carnal nature and assume a magical character. Its center of gravity must be transferred to a subtle plane where the mutual magnetism of intense sexual love and desire consists in an intoxication or congestion of astral light. Its climax and supreme ecstasy correspond to the rupture of level of individual consciousness and the sudden realization of the nondual state. This is the ultimate goal that path of desire or kama-marga which has been considered in Hindu tradition alongside the other paths of liberation …
This is the heart of the matter: the path of desire is not considered one of the paths of liberation. In any event, even this paragraph confirms what we have written in the comments section. The “center of gravity” must transcend the merely physical and carnal act in itself. As a practical matter, this requires the man to remain conscious and detached during the “sacrament”, which may make it magical at the cost of destroying its entertainment value as a sexual act.
@olavsson, you said some other things that i could reply to but i will stick to the one on i below ……..
“there are of course numerous elements that have influenced me in a more spiritual direction, amounting to a deep change in how I see myself, the world, reality, to the extent that what you described as “a clear and noble ambition” is now my entirely sincere will, the only way I see as worthy of even being considered. If nothing else, it is a beginning – and perhaps what Guénon would have called an “intellectual conversion.” But I don’t see such influences as having been very spectacular, and I believe what I could say about it is only of subjective interest. I do not see myself as having had any initiation, though, at least not in in terms of ‘effective’ initiation, in which a virtual state is fully actualized. I’ve heard some talk of so-called ‘dream initiations’ (which would be virtual). I’ve had very lucid dream experiences that could be interpreted in such a direction, but I would be very cautious about claiming anything here. They may be signs, among other signs, of a minor inner development in a given direction, but in most cases, one shouldn’t make too much of it. That will suffice for now”
…………..
What about the path of an ongoing self-initiation ?
Into what?
How could that operate ?
In the spirit of speculations with a mystical twist.
As they say , it begins with a sense of recurring dis-satisfaction within the participation of ones existence , even although there may be peaks of great joy, depressions, toos and fros, intimate-friends , circumstancial alienations etc, something is missing , something out there or in here is calling you , and one recognises this call, but what to do about it ?
At some point, some form of crisis arrives and carves its energetic signature into your psyche , this is the 1st initiation , it was forced onto you by circumstances that did conspire to react to your demands of dis-satisfaction in a manner of manifestation that certainly would not have been wilfully chosen, but there we are, the activity has spoken .
The result of that 1st initiation is to force ones will upon ones world, to take up action for change.
Now , the intellectual conversation is real, not just a leisure pursuit. As the thinking has a direction to a purpose.
The intention is firstly to identify how you can directly affect your existence so that it becomes more of a nourishing event rather than a hostile ,suffocating, energy draining, or just plain banal environment .
One realizes that 2 fronts must be engaged, the inner world of how to think and contemplate and the nature of temporal understandings, and the outer world of material habitations and locational frequencys
So the inner watcher is now fully aroused in consciousness that now works on itself , the thoughts, the habits, the associates, the aquaintances, the friends, the work situation , the locational standpoint .
All these things are vitally important to bring into harmony before any further action is considered
Once those things are brought to task to a state of optimisation , so that a particular level of firstly deeper contemplative relaxation is arrived at, then and only then does one begin to consider the nature of spiritual ambition and development which is now the focal point to all else , and within that focal point , work, pleasure , relating, rest and travel must all serve that spiritual purpose where possible, but then with that in mind, suddenly an intrusion occurs, existence interupts your supposed purpose and now you find yourself on a tangental path not of your initial choosing but which is necessary in order to fullfill an act of continued benevolent goodwill to another soul that needs ones presence….as others may do for thee ….but within that form of benevolent action, profound realisations may be arrived at , that could never have been considered before and in themselfs that can alter ones areas of priority and destiny.
That was the 2nd initiation = its not always about exactly what you think you wanted , in existence, the activitys occur and then your consciousness is altered , but it is not ones concern to “think” excessively about what might be going on in this deeper realm of affects, because by now, a new form of intuitive recognition is formulating within, that somehow recognizes the significance of these tangental diversions that suddenly present themselves , and this is where its going now, into a world of changes presented to the self and dictated by old familiar feelings , its getting kind of treachourous now because in this world, feelings can be very misleading , in the self and in others , but discernment is priming itself almost at a pre-conscious level that has decided before the thought clarifies in consciousness .
The developing union of the mind and heart in decisiveness.
At this moment, it can be realised that excess thinking in itself can be an inhibiting diversion from the evoluting process , the authority of choice has now shifted from pure mind consciousness deeper into the self, that perfect clarity of contemplating discernment has now begun to invest some of its choice making decisions back into its own dark matter.
The decisions are now made before the thoughts can discern the total dynamics of them , it is only a matter of awaiting agreement from the thoughts and then eventually loosening the thinking lead on that developing source, but it is a matter of trust, one wrong move and all is lost , too late.
And the right move may at that moment portray thee as the fool
But then you recall the realm of the clock master
You are now out of time in the realm of the seers
Great dangers lurk there , and joyous incomprehensible rewards , you are the result of “your” (?) choices , which at the critical level of the prime moment , occur before you can reflect them in mind.
When you look in the mirror, you can see exactly what you are and how you are doing .
Your master is intuition
But the judas is also here and there
That is the 3rd initiation
@ John
Following the theories of Guénon which I for simplicity’s sake assume that you are acquainted with, more precisely his writings on initiation (available as PDF): if I am to affiliate myself with any ‘regular’ initiatic chain, in an organized sense, not merely an ‘ideal’ affiliation based on independent, individual study and praxis (which is what I do now), for all practical intents and purposes, I see my two main alternatives as being A) a Buddhist initiation, or B) a Sufi initiation.
In the West, we are faced with either unorthodox, modern fake-initiations or organizational initiatory residues that are pretty much impotent by now, offering no genuine opportunity for intensive, systematic training. Masonry, for example, may or may not (I am uncertain here) transmit an actual spiritual influence through its ritual work, but I cannot see that it offers any practical framework for *developing* these seeds through internal training. Perhaps the ritual influence does make a difference for the individual’s propensity for spiritual growth (I am in no position to ascertain this), but the means for actively furthering such growth would have to be gathered by the individual on his own initiative from other sources. So all in all, the problem would not be much different from what we (formally) uninitiated Gornahoor-readers are already confronted with.
As for the East, there are of course other initiatic channels outside of the options A) and B) that I mentioned. But the authentic initiatic chains within Hinduism are difficult to access for westerners in several ways. Truly initiatic Daoism seems also to be pretty out of the way. (Am I forgetting any other traditional alternatives?) I’m not saying that accessing such authentic chains is impossible, but in my own case, I am not considering them as realistic options (though much of the written material tied to such traditions is highly useful, certainly, whether ‘doctrinal’ or ‘operative’, concerning praxis).
Traditional Sufi groups are available in the West today, due to the high number of Muslim immigrants. However, converting to Islam doesn’t appeal much to me, even though I have much sympathy for many of the elements associated with Sufi esoterism. I also have a great sympathy for the superior aspects of the traditional Buddhist universe and its approach to the path to illumination and liberation. In my view, the currents of the latter that have not lost a sense of higher metaphysics and initiatic-esoteric elements (contemporary ‘Buddhism’ as a whole is simply too broad a category), represent a methodology and system that my type has a stronger affinity with. So even though there are plenty of problematic aspects here, I am more inclined to consider initiatic chains within Tantric Buddhism, or Vajrayana, primarily. That leaves India/Tibet with the highest concentration of such lineages.
Gornahoor, of course, whose agenda is the restoration of a complete Western tradition, including Christian-Hermetic esoterism, is not enthusiastic about options such as the above. But, it isn’t self-evident that an individual use of such exotic means as part of an initiatic development stands in contradiction to such a greater project. The need, after all, is for more anti-modern westerners to participate in the spiritual war through their own deep realization, no matter which methods they use to arrive at it. That is only the first stage in any complete restoration of sacred order. As long as such individuals are in favour of the rebirth of Tradition in the West, there is no essential contradiction, as their principal loyalties are absolute, to the supreme Truth transcending the limitations of any contingent form, and the approach to the non-western tradition is entirely motivated by concerns of an initiatic order, which has little to do with the common ‘conversion’ to a religion from below, followed by the rejection of one’s ancestral tradition as false. Guénon explained this well.
Making use of eastern initiations for one’s spiritual training is not something that should be universally recommended for most westerners on a quest for gnosis and active spiritual reintegration. That goes without saying. But neither should it be definitely excluded as an option for those who are willing and able to give it a try. It is one of the options that must be considered, and I am sure it may be useful for some and potentially, if all the factors are right, contribute a powerful impetus for spiritual realization. The only initiatic chains existing openly (note that word) today that offer a complete framework for such work are eastern. So for those wanting to test such organized initiatic circumstances, that is the only way. However, that does certainly not mean that an individual may not heroically forge a western way for himself that takes him equally far, or even farther, on the esoteric path. That is, if my understanding is correct, Gornahoor’s position, and I’m not opposing it. In fact, that might possibly be what I end up having to do, for better or worse, on this path. And Gornahoor’s contribution, along with other sources, are very relevant in this regard.
Anyway – and I won’t exclude that I may be misguided by illusions here – I am still thinking that in my case, giving one of the eastern initiatic currents a chance might be worth a try. We all have to do something in order to forge a clear path, and I don’t think there is much to lose in giving it a try if one is open to the possibility and has the opportunity. If one discovers from personal experience that it seems to be unnecessary or counter-productive, it is always possible to leave. Of all the pointless things one can do in today’s world, this is surely not the worst idea, as it might hypothetically turn out to be constructive and beneficial in terms of initiation. Just think about it: It is usual to study for many years at university courses. That is well enough – the point here is not to criticize it –, but in general it means absolutely nothing for the spiritual path. Seen purely from the point of view of results upon that Path, such time would certainly have been better spent contemplating, meditating and carrying out ascetic practices in the East. At least, that appeals more to me. I won’t speak for anyone else.
What is it that I would seek in such a place, if deciding to closely investigate the situation for myself, let’s say, among the Tibetan community? This is still hypothetical. I would seek a yogin who is genuinely worthy of respect – not merely because of his title but because of his qualities, virtues, experience and knowledge – and who is part of a suitable initiatic stream. I would also seek circumstances that are conducive to intensive, full-time praxis, such as the access to a centre that arranges ascetic retreats and so on. Note that such a thing is not easy to arrange for oneself here in the west.
But note that I have not decided on any definite plans in this regard as of yet. I will have to do more work and research on my own and eventually find out what is viable.
As for your second question, Mr. John:
What I’m presently doing on my own, staying within the confines of what is relevant to this context, is that I study traditional doctrines, and work on shaping my soul so as to be increasingly compatible with the way conforming to the divine ray. You could say that I am trying to lay the groundwork for real initiatic work – the preliminaries, if you will. Building up force in the right direction through basic disciplines, contemplation and meditation. For you who have been reading Gornahoor, you will likely have an idea of what needs to be done by personal initiative in order to leave the old habits and patterns of the profane ego behind and get started on a serious path ultimately aimed at integration of the ideal spiritual centre of man as the first goal. There are fundamental practices that are necessary no matter which outer spiritual path one eventually ends up on. The sooner one gets started on this, the better. Advancing gradually, and adding more as one goes. I will not pretend to be any teacher, here, still being a mere amateur. On this site, Mr. Cologero is the most suited for that. I can only echo what @Alistair Fraser said on that.
By the way, Mr. Fraser, that sounds like a cool TV series.
Regarding Mr. Fraser’s question about personal experiences, there are of course numerous elements that have influenced me in a more spiritual direction, amounting to a deep change in how I see myself, the world, reality, to the extent that what you described as “a clear and noble ambition” is now my entirely sincere will, the only way I see as worthy of even being considered. If nothing else, it is a beginning – and perhaps what Guénon would have called an “intellectual conversion.” But I don’t see such influences as having been very spectacular, and I believe what I could say about it is only of subjective interest. I do not see myself as having had any initiation, though, at least not in in terms of ‘effective’ initiation, in which a virtual state is fully actualized. I’ve heard some talk of so-called ‘dream initiations’ (which would be virtual). I’ve had very lucid dream experiences that could be interpreted in such a direction, but I would be very cautious about claiming anything here. They may be signs, among other signs, of a minor inner development in a given direction, but in most cases, one shouldn’t make too much of it. That will suffice for now.
Thank you for your time , and that is enough of that for me from an anonymous , as its not something that holds my interest in any way , it’s a good lesson in the inappropriate for me anyway
Ok, here is a summary of my initiatic experiences, rife with personal details… Maybe I will incorporate this into a memoir. Feel free to skip to the actual/second initiation…
***a while before initiation: I was new to Islam and had not decided upon any particular interpretation. I committed grave sins on a regular basis. I prayed five times a day but did it wrong. I had never been to a mosque. I went psychotic during my last semester of college (spring 2014), but this did not prevent me from graduating with honors. I had many delusions, such as people psychologically torturing me, drugging me, spying on me, and mocking me, and also that I was very famous. I stopped committing grave sins, apart from the occasional lie.
After graduating, I started going to mosque and gravitating towards sunnism.
***possible initiation:
Under the belief that fleeing to Turkey would save me from the tyranny I was being subjected to, I went to Istanbul in the summer for a CELTA (TEFL) course. I did poorly and withdrew after a couple weeks. Then I decided to go attend a dhikr circle. I had been gravitating towards sunnism and tasawwuf, but hadn’t made up my mind yet. I was already acquainted with the tariqa from online, and I had watched plenty of sohbets (sermons/lectures) online. At a derga of this tariqa I said I wanted to join a sufi order. They didn’t hear me well and asked me to repeat myself, and then I said I wanted to join that particular sufi order. They said the shaykh was coming that night. I intended to take baya (initiation), and I participated in an initiation ceremony without knowing what it was. I am unsure if I was initiated then or not.
I stayed with the sufis in Istanbul for a little less than a month. I was as delusional as ever, and thought the food we were eating had drugs in it, and that they were vomiting it up with emeritics after we ate. The Shaykh was the first person I told about my psychoses. We didn’t communicate very well. He advised that I go to Hong Kong, then when I asked him about possibly going to Ethiopia he suggested that I go there first. I went to Hong Kong, and after some adventures there I returned to the U.S.
***not long before initiation:
In the U.S. I was institutionalized twice. By this point, everyone had figured out I was psychotic. I was receiving guidance from the representative of a different shaykh of the same tariqa. She advised me to cooperate with psychiatrists. I trusted that she and the shaykh knew how to solve my problems, so I took the drugs the shrinks wanted me to. Over the course of the first half or so of 2015, my psychoses faded away as I went off the drug. By this point, I had developed a strong faith in tasawwuf and in this tariqa. I was unsure if I had taken initiation in Istanbul and wanted to take initiation from the shaykh in the U.S.
***initiation:
I was initiated by the shaykh when he came to visit my area. After I took baya with him he told me « you are a good person. keep going straight », and he pointed to the left and right and said not to listen to things coming from there.
Since then, I have been remembering Allah and His Prophet (sas) and the hereafter and judgment day more often, and implementing the sunnah of the Prophet (sas) more thoroughly. This has especially been the case since this Ramadan, when I started to do half of the daily dhikr prescribed for initiates.
My shaykh told us during a sohbet that we (everyone in the room) had no doubt that la ilaha illallah muhammadunrasulullah and I believed him; this was good for me because I thought I might have had doubts.
My shaykh also told me (through his representative) that I hadn’t meant it the first time I said the shahada; this was good to know because I didn’t remember clearly.
***recently:
I have lost faith in my shaykh because of some atrocious things his shaykh said about other religions, so I am hoping to take initiation with another shaykh.
More and more I have been accepting and embracing how ignorant I am, without this inhibiting me from seeking knowledge.
As for the details on my subjective states of mind, they are not easy to remember or describe in detail, but they can be summarized as an increase in dhikrullah. In particular, I think « allah », « subhanallah », and « alhamdulillah » much more often. I also remember Muhammad (sas) and the hereafter more often, but still not very much.
that’s all!
@FA. Yes please elaborate on the experience of the I ordeal with before and after and during comments on consciousness where appropriate to illustrate the affection change in being
Alistair Fraser, sorry for using this silly name…
I have no experiences with initiations into Western traditions, though I am living in the West and was initiated here. I will just say that sufism is alive and well here, like a healthy little civilization within a sea of barbarism and confusion. It is for the most part the same as sufism elsewhere, though there are certain groups and orders which have a distinctly Western character (at least in comparison to other groups).
I have definitely spiritually advanced since taking initiation, though this could be more the result of my newly developed belief in tasawwuf than the initiation. It’s hard to be sure.
I assume you wanted to hear about initiations into Western traditions in the West, and not Sufi initiations in the West, which are perfectly common… but if you want, I could describe my experiences in detail.
@…..FA sounds like a spoof name……. b u u o r v d ………..but please elaborate on your experience of Wi
On Carradine character talks with the master po, this clip holds some of the wisest ones, whats more interesting, is that even having carried out this series , later in life, carradine ends up the victim of s sex kink or assassination https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2yIkDVs0cA
Olavsson, where will you plan to find such organized structures? In India, China or Tibet? And what are you doing for what you already do?
Hi Alistair, I can share my experiences if you want,
did you want to hear about Western initiations in particular? I’m a sufi murid…
@ Olavsson – you have a clear and noble ambition then by what you state .
On the subject of “Master” its really a very ambiguous term , especially the more thought is given to it , in the basic perception , the master would be a persona that had mastered a craft such as the usual example given of a martial arts expert etc. In the famous opening scene in the kung fu tv series , carradine is only allowed to depart the student temple into the outer world on his own, after he can demonstrate a particular task , after which he has transcended the available “contained” teachings, and after which once he enters into the live world of unknown and known forces , he is then exposed to a new level of potential teachings in which his previous student teachings have prepared him in the best way known to his ancestors for what he may encounter now out on his own .
His mission which he seems to have accepted is then to go out and encounter people on his travels , and what he “actually does” is presents a living example of how to behave on a higher level of principles and values to other beings he meets .
He meets many different people and most always they are initially shocked at his unusual to them choices and behaviours but usually after been exposed to him , these others are positively affected by carradines living example of a higher order of principle and values
And in a manner of speaking this series displays a beautiful message to the inquiring viewers of the nature and value of proper learning, discipline knowing the self, = the process of initiations, and then finally at a certain stage of development , one can go out into the world and impact this living example of a higher state of being into reality
For me this sums up the true master , who also is aware that they are always learning from every experience that they meet in reality ……….
But I’m sure others can come up with other forms of interpretation .
And on the subject of tradition , reading through this site, it seems to me that the host and some others are beings of the “exceptional” in the traditional arts, so it is wonderful for me to find these type of people “out There” (:
John,
I am not presently practically affiliated with any organized religious structures or lineages, exoteric or esoteric, other than my old membership in the Evangelical Lutheran church of Norway, which is hardly worth mentioning. I am studying traditions and working on my personal practice within that context of isolation from outer structures. Not ideal, perhaps, but it’s what I have right now.
In other words, I am not really in a position to answer your question from a perspective of solid experience. My impression is that the quality of traditional ‘masters’ out there is pretty low on average nowadays, so I am not overly optimistic. This goes for all traditions. For example, is there any master attached to Chinese Chan Buddhism today who is on the same level as the venerable Hsu Yun (a relatively recent example)? Perhaps, but then he’s probably hard to find. From what I know, I cannot claim to be awestruck by the major Vajrayana leaders nowadays, to make another example, and that even if they are highly initiated in the esoteric dimensions of the tradition. But on the other hand, we cannot expect such figures to appear almost godlike at first sight for them to have realized effective initiations on an inner level and being able to fulfill a certain function. One should also keep in mind that the greatest masters in a given tradition are not always those who are most visible to the larger public. Some of them may be rather obscure. (The Jonang lineage that I mentioned, for example, which is highly specialized on the level of advanced esoteric and meditation practice, was believed to be extinct until recently due to its location mostly being in remote areas of eastern Tibet – they are beginning to make a come-back nowadays and are said to have a high level of realized practitioners). While traditions in general are in a degenerate state now compared to greater times, I am pretty certain that if doing some deep investigation, one will be able to find organized structures that do offer a good context for initiatic work. At least a context that is better than being completely left to one’s own devices while simultaneously having to cope with the usual modern life-patterns. But these are merely tools – inner realization still depends on one’s own abilities and efforts, it cannot be forced from outside.
I am not yet exactly sure on which direction is best for my initiatic way on the outer level, aside from doing what I already do. What I do know is that I will stop at nothing to ensure that my choices in life are conducive to the only worthy goal there is. I don’t care at all for any of the mundane concerns that modern life revolves around: profane education, profane careers, money and status obsessions, superficial relationships, and all the other illusory, inessential and impermanent “interests” that drive people. My dream is to leave all of that behind and focus a 100% on actualizing the supreme, not only for myself, but for all of humanity. Nothing is more necessary today. I will have no compromises. My only reason for being in the world is ultimately this. The question then, is which outer contexts will prove most helpful on this path, to the degree possible.
And on dantes divine, anyone whom has read it in italian or english version, is there included allusions to the phenomena of transumanar or anything practical or reported from the erotic world of dante that comes to mind right now and may reveal something to someone ?
Extra extension = Speaking of meditation, for example there is david lynch whom advocates the great benefits to creativity and peace and tranquility etc etc of transcendental meditation
Now can anyone layout anything experiential of profound significance on that practice that initiated them into a different trajectory of being ?
Or even examples of anyone doing periodic meditations and how to they affirm progression ?
I am repelled by the term “sex magic” in its referential sense because in todays world, it is a term that seems to be aligned with people that carry out certain active sexual practices which someone in history had reported or even that they themselves created as experiments . And also the term “path of desire” seems to me to bring to mind a lower order of considerations.
A lot of people are talking of initiation and various paths and orders etc, but to what end ?
Can anyone that reads this lay out an experiential occurrence that they deem initiatic and then lay out in which way they interpret it as of being beneficial to them, even if that benefit is seen as a recognition and overcoming of previous negating behaviours or states of existence that were limited and cyclical
I understand that these things may be too private and sensitive to lay out in public and other reasons of eyes seeing them that most probably might misinterpret something , but there is always the option of message function for those reading this that are not under the anon umbrella , imagine thinking you can be anon on a computer ?
Now on these matters of sex and magic and desire etc , i have no doubt that within this realm lies the ruin of many a soul that became an absolute addict to the orgasmic discombobulation syndrome as i love to label it, and then others whom due to other imbalances in their energetic conditions just did not quite access even the higher orgasmic experiences and so never pursued any further inquiry or addiction into the realm.
I have already stated in previous comments about a period of will-induced celibacy for cleansing and other private reasons of inquiry and evolution , and during this celibate period of 3 years, age 24 to 27 there were encountered what the profane press refer to as “wet dreams” which i have described in detail as finding the self absolutely lucid in a dream with a female figure of absolute-woman archetypal design in which a level of raised sensual realisation and anticipated orgasmic feeling with a complete removal of any form of psychic disturbance, just a pure interaction that then only gets disturbed when in the dream, one is attempting to hold back from the orgasmic climax while still building and immersion in sensual pleasure (reversal phenomena occurring, psychic before physical) also attempting to comprehend the seemingly continuance of its heights when all of a sudden a gesture from the dream partner triggers the onslaught of the orgasm and there is then a moment where the psychic consciousness is disturbed while it m,aces the transition from the lucid dream back through into waking reality via the arresting incredible heightened orgasm (what a way to wake up one0 but the key observation about this events (2 of them) is that it can be perceived as an initiatic event, because certain knowledge or erotic sensibilities was imported from a dream state into a reality consciousness and this initiation was also scribed or signatured by the incredible orgasmic motion which bridged both worlds of timeless dream psychic back to everyday time mode consciousness.
One could then ask – what good was it to you, and well, there is simply too much to say in reply to that for this moment , but the fact remains that this , in my view is a reasonable report of an initiatic personal event that was transcendental and vibrational to the core of being influencing all future choices and perceptions henceforth .
And i think it was a result of the celibate exercise
Always much more to say soon, because in the reporting of real experiential insights , i think many interesting things can be compared , but maybe offline for most
“The real question is whether certain lineages have preserved an effective and complete esoteric methodology, whether the doctrines are satisfying, and whether there are still individuals attached to the lineage that have mastered the techniques and doctrines to the degree that they are qualified to initiate others.”
Have you found any of such individuals, Olavsson?
Are there any examples of men who have attained effective initiation through independent study of The Divine Comedy? While Dante was indeed an initiate, and his work is highly relevant in this regard, he was hardly self-initiated himself. We know well how negative Guenon was regarding the effective reliability of such an approach, though Evola was in turn critical to what he deemed his overly exaggerated emphasis on formal, initiatic ‘regularity’. I tend to think both had their valid points in this respect. That be as it may, we have to work with the tools that are within reach. Of the various options that you have listed here, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. A few years of meditation in a hermitage in the East will, if not do miracles (though it might), at the very least leave you in a condition more receptive to attaining effective initiation than before. Would that make it easier or harder to understand and integrate the teachings of Dante and the other western esoteric streams? I think the former.
I will make an exception for the last ‘alternative’ that you list, though, which holds the least appeal due to the massive problems attached to it. For this to bear genuine fruits of a spiritual order, rather than being a veiled front for counter-productive forces of the lower self, at “best” mere magical psychism (which I believe was the case for A. Crowley, who I greatly doubt was very accomplished in the sense of genuine initiation, and that after having studied him) – or for that matter what Evola called “profane love”, which, when imagining it to be something other than it is, will prove a major distraction – in short, for this to be authentic tantric sexual practice (for which I, by the way, do not consider ‘sex magic’ to be the right term), the most advisable would be to spend years practicing other, non-sexual disciplines to allow for the sexual practice to actually reach any higher level eventually at all, before implementing the latter. (So here we come back to that meditation-cave…) The absolutely unimpressive example of all those westerners who think that they have practiced sexual “tantra” over the last decades should be all we need to know in order to caution against getting enthusiastic about this too soon. Without the right personal qualifications and the right spiritual context, such experimentation will be pointless, if not even harmful. It may seem easy at first sight, but it’s a very difficult practice to master successfully.
As to what Evola says about this kama-marga, I’ve never got my head around it, and that despite having read his ‘Metaphysics of Sex’, as well as the relevant passages in ‘Yoga of Power’. How can a path based on desire lead to equivalent spiritual states as a path based on freedom from desire? Tantric Buddhism requires detachment from desire even in the sexual act (in the few instances that such means are applied literally), for there to be any powerful potential in such a practice at all. There is almost something ‘schizophrenic’ about Evola’s defense of so radically opposite paths, claiming that they are equal. Though I have a great respect for Evola, I think he was emotionally biased in this regard, because there were certain attachments he wasn’t able to overcome, leading him to a problematic attempt at reconciling these opposing inner tendencies with ‘Traditional’ justifications. Despite of these attempts, I can’t help but see inconsistencies. From reading this commentary by Cologero, the doubts I had about the truthfulness of such passages in Evola’s works were confirmed. Even as far as tantric traditions go, I always found Evola’s defense of the Hindu tantrism of the Left Hand, orgies and the like rather questionable. (Maybe it just doesn’t harmonize very well with my ‘spiritual race’). If such lower tantric rituals lead to any ‘transcendence’ at all, it occurred to me that it could just as well be the disintegrating ‘downward’ transcendence of the individuality.
– “But who has 40 years to meditate on the Divine Comedy?” [Cologero]
That is a good point. I’m still relatively young, in my early twenties, so unless I am destined to leave this world early (I won’t take the opposite for granted!), I have plenty of years to meditate on The Divine Comedy. But is that really the most effective path? Maybe it will work for some exceptional individuals who are extremely qualified for initiation, but such individuals would also accomplish considerably more from practicing those Eastern paths than the other westerners you mentioned. Those Eastern alternatives may not be ideal, but we do not live in an ideal era. Meditating in Himalayan caves and practicing the Tantric yogas, for example, can obviously not be an alternative for most westerners seeking a path, but for those prioritizing initiation above all else, and for whom it is a possibility, this is one of the traditional initiatic channels that actually exist for consideration today. The fact that playing around with Tibetan Buddhism does not guarantee any higher realization, which the example of these westerners associated with the tradition that you mention testifies to (on the other hand, I don’t think such individuals would have achieved much with Dante either), proves little as far as the higher possibilities associated with a tradition are concerned. The real question is whether certain lineages have preserved an effective and complete esoteric methodology, whether the doctrines are satisfying, and whether there are still individuals attached to the lineage that have mastered the techniques and doctrines to the degree that they are qualified to initiate others. Next, it remains to see how one is able to use those resources for inner realization, which will vary vastly between different individuals with unequal potentials. Even considering these differing inner qualifications, I think one receiving the entire Kalachakra esoteric system from the Jonang lineage, for instance, thereupon spending 3 years+ (standard practice among them) in intensive meditation-retreat, the chances that he will benefit on the initiatic path is considerable, unless his nature is not qualified for such a path. Even then, with lacking qualification, an undivided will fully directed towards transcendence must lead in the right direction and plant some seeds.
If one decides that there is any point in one’s own case to follow such a path, learning one or two exotic languages is not a big obstacle, but rather good training for the mind.
With all of that said, which path to take on an individual level is a complex issue with no fixed answers.
“In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they are not.”
No, the parallel translation is nice, but not necessary. The language is a secondary issue. The real issue is knowing enough Virgil, Aristotle, and Aquinas, inter alia, to get drawn into the world view. But who has 40 years to meditate on the Divine Comedy?
I think I see what you mean, looking at the article – the “nobler” or higher path (and therefore, the more traditional one) would be to pursue Option 1. Option 3 is more “unlikely” in terms of preserving all of what we wish to preserve. It would be a society increasingly defined by casual sex, enjoying an uneasy truce with modern practice. It’s one thing to come to traditionalism while already engaged in certain practice, and then implement a change of context, and another to begin to be drawn to the practices after one already understands Tradition, as a means of synthesis?
Perish the thought. I must try – I’ve marked the two works for purchase. How important is it to have a parallel Italian translation? I know a little German and a little Latin, but Italian might be too much to learn quickly. In fact, I know it is.
So the modern worldview is ineradicable and there is no return?
As for option 3, it seems more likely than not: “Yoga and Sex Scandals
Option 1 is unlikely, but least so.